Curse

AshenX · Mar 12, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by .defekt

This is ridiculous. I would really LOVE to see a bunch of PvE scrubs enter HA and try to grind some fame. See, the thing is, you have to actually have the skill to beat another team of actual people. Not a group of shadow elementals that do the exact same thing every time you agro them.

But sure, go ahead, I'd love to see how you do. I'm sure 5 fame will be a really good achievement.

A few months back I decided to give HA a try. After watching a few matches, and going into a few HA matches with allies, I decided to form my own PUG team. I ended up with only one player who had even a single point of fame. MOst of the others had never tried HA before. It was all I could get to team up with me as I was UNRANKED. We played together for a few hours and got 58 fame.

It was not easy, we didnt even have Vent or TS, and I could tell that many of those that we defeated were as inexperienced as we were but our build was better and we didnt stand in AOE so we won. We even beat some teams whose names I recognized as winning in HoH with some frequency. We ran a simple build consisting of a Thumper, a shock Warrior, SH eles, and monks. Nothing fancy but it worked.

My point to you defekt is I lead a team of PVE scrubs (self included in that title) with essentially no experience in HA and we got 58 fame. I wonder how much of your fame was gained, as was mine in the example given, by defeating those with less experience than yourself. Certainly there are extremely good teams out there but I do not believe that farming fame from people that have little or no idea what they are doing is necessarily any more difficult than doing DOA in HM (pre Ursan).

I m going to make a counter suggestion to yours. Get a group of 8 people with no experience in PVE, let them use your account (and perhaps those of your guildies-siblings or other relatives would be just fine for this purpose) Dont let them use wiki (I didnt for HA) give them an hour of explanation/training (all I had for HA) and turn them loose in Slavers Exile HM (or UW, FOW, DOA). Remember no prior experience in PVE

I apologize now for any negative connotations to my post but please remember that if there was no skill needed for PVE then there wouldnt be all of those "I hate PUGs" threads. If no skill was needed then PUGs would work just fine all of the time, everywhere. I know that I am more than a little off topic but felt the need to respond to defekt's point.

OI-812 · Mar 12, 2008, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Most Prestigious Title Track in Guild Wars:

"I'm Having Fun"

Prestigious because it seems to be so rare and so hard to get.

Into White · Mar 12, 2008, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshenX

A few months back I decided to give HA a try. After watching a few matches, and going into a few HA matches with allies, I decided to form my own PUG team. I ended up with only one player who had even a single point of fame. MOst of the others had never tried HA before. It was all I could get to team up with me as I was UNRANKED. We played together for a few hours and got 58 fame.

It was not easy, we didnt even have Vent or TS, and I could tell that many of those that we defeated were as inexperienced as we were but our build was better and we didnt stand in AOE so we won. We even beat some teams whose names I recognized as winning in HoH with some frequency. We ran a simple build consisting of a Thumper, a shock Warrior, SH eles, and monks. Nothing fancy but it worked.

let's see. you tried this a "few months back" meaning that zergway had just been nerfed and that a new meta (for HA) was being formed. so it's conceivable that a good balanced team could make such a run. still, 58 fame in a few hours is pretty damned good. the most i ever got was 51 in 2+ hours. and i was r4 at the time.

a team with a few "ranked" ppl and a few unranked ppl might pull this off (with some luck and/or a particularly pathetic time zone) but an absolute noob team? that's hard to believe. either, you're a lot better player than you say or your teammates had some previous experience in halls.

dunno.

VOTD · Mar 12, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

ive got allmost 30 title maxed now. but if i coud chose id rather have hero R15 then my current. (my guildhall smeels, you know the rest)
id think someone with good pvp titles seems alot more skilled then someone with a good pve title

Stockholm · Mar 12, 2008, 11:32 PM // 23:32

taste in Titles are like the bum ...............split

Here is a good example why titles mean nothing

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10266076

romeus petrus · Mar 13, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Into White

still, 58 fame in a few hours is pretty damned good. the most i ever got was 51 in 2+ hours. and i was r4 at the time.
a team with a few "ranked" ppl and a few unranked ppl might pull this off (with some luck and/or a particularly pathetic time zone) but an absolute noob team? that's hard to believe. either, you're a lot better player than you say or your teammates had some previous experience in halls.
dunno.

I agree that 58 fame in a "few hours" with a team going to HA for the first time, even if extremely lucky and all the rest of the teams in HA at that time were noobs, is still very hard to believe i.e. it didn't happen.

Sparda · Mar 13, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Well let me think the most prestigious title.
I think there ain't any

Sweet tooth, Drunkard, Party Animal can be bought for 1000k ea or buy 10000 points of ea for 100 bucks online.
Survivor can be bought for 75/100 gold ea 400exp.
Wisdom can be bought for 7 golds 3k.
SS and LB isn't skill just time spent gettin it.
Same for Asura, Norn, Ebon Vanguard, Deldrimor also time spent or just use book runners for around 40k NM and 90k HM

LDoA you need to do it yourself but a worthless title.
Protector Title track well one of few that needs some skill for storyline.
Guardian Title Track wel u can do it yourself but i see allot of people just take HM runners for missions.

Skill Hunter well it takes time some skill course you need to get to the boss
and 300k ofcourse.
Vanquisher well no comments it takes some skill to survive but effort and reward ain't worth it IMO.

Only title i like is Cartographer course you need to do it yourself sure you can use Texture crap but still.

In the end you can buy far most every title ingame if not for ingame cash you can also buy online golds and a few from a former guild did it.
Or pay a nolife person 500 bucks and go AFK while he runs everything
So there arn't much prestigious titles IMO.

Lord High Pwner · Mar 13, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

The only titles that impress me are ones that someone had to put alot of time into. And its not the title that impresses me its that someone stuck to their guns and did it.

Id have to say id be most impressed to see Cursed by fate. As 500k unlucky points is Bananas. with 2 boardwalks a year you might get 50k un lucky points if you're lucky(no pun intended) and at that rate hope you have 10 years to get that title. The alternative is no less painfull. If you wanted to run chests only, pray you have a spare 25 million laying around, as you will need to break 10000 lockpicks. And the 25 million is only if you where to break every pick. Plus the fact you will have to run the treasure title 3-4 times over.
That would impress me more than anything to see someone with that title.

Res Ipsi · Mar 13, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

I agree that 58 fame in a "few hours" with a team going to HA for the first time, even if extremely lucky and all the rest of the teams in HA at that time were noobs, is still very hard to believe i.e. it didn't happen.

He offers a counter to your assertion that PvE'rs lack the skill to win in PvP, and your counter is that he must be lying? Do you really believe an experienced PvE'r wouldn't know how to use terrain to their advantage, how to kite, when to split, how to body-block, etc. etc.? The same tactics you think makes PvP so much more intellectually challenging than PvE are used in many elite PvE areas, so they're not foreign concepts to us. The fact that you use them against a group of 8 other humans who are constrained by the same rules your team is (unlike PvE foes), in a predictable context is a matter of preference. Let's not attach any more significance to it than that.

romeus petrus · Mar 13, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

He offers a counter to your assertion that PvE'rs lack the skill to win in PvP

The discussion is about PvP vs PvE titles not players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

and your counter is that he must be lying?

That is correct. 58 fame points in a "few hours" for a group of players who have never been to HA before is simply impossible.

Screens or it didn't happen, and since no screens were provided..you know the rest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

Do you really believe an experienced PvE'r wouldn't know how to use terrain to their advantage, how to kite, when to split, how to body-block, etc. etc.?

Yes I do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

The same tactics you think makes PvP so much more intellectually challenging than PvE are used in many elite PvE areas, so they're not foreign concepts to us. The fact that you use them against a group of 8 other humans who are constrained by the same rules your team is (unlike PvE foes), in a predictable context is a matter of preference. Let's not attach any more significance to it than that.

For the last time, when you go into any PvE elite area (DoA/Urgoz/Deep/UW/FoW/or even Slavers if it qualifies), you know exactly what monsters you will find there, you know exactly what the AI is going to do when you aggro, you know exactly what skills every monster is going to use, and you know exactly which build is known to finish that area. Other than predicting the general build the opponent team is running in PvP, you have no such luxury.

Most PvP players started in PvE, but to say that a group of 8 players got 58 points in fame in the first few hours ever they spent in HA is simply not possible. If you think it is, then you clearly didn't spend enough time in HA.

The Way Out · Mar 13, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

The discussion is about PvP vs PvE titles not players.

That is correct. 58 fame points in a "few hours" for a group of players who have never been to HA before is simply impossible.

Screens or it didn't happen, and since no screens were provided..you know the rest.

Yes I do.

For the last time, when you go into any PvE elite area (DoA/Urgoz/Deep/UW/FoW/or even Slavers if it qualifies), you know exactly what monsters you will find there, you know exactly what the AI is going to do when you aggro, you know exactly what skills every monster is going to use, and you know exactly which build is known to finish that area. Other than predicting the general build the opponent team is running in PvP, you have no such luxury.

Most PvP players started in PvE, but to say that a group of 8 players got 58 points in fame in the first few hours ever they spent in HA is simply not possible. If you think it is, then you clearly didn't spend enough time in HA.

When I go into HA or any other PvP match I "almost" know what the other team is going to run because people run the same builds all the time there. Whether it was "IWAY", "Zergway", "Sinway", "Ritway", whateverway... you see the same builds in PvP a lot. You get to know what people are running as soon as they start casting. Nine times out of ten you are running a build that someone else know about. That is the nature of PvP.

Lastly, I used those "team" builds as an example and don't claim they are any good. I am just proving a point by using them as an example.

romeus petrus · Mar 13, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Way Out

When I go into HA or any other PvP match I "almost" know what the other team is going to run because people run the same builds all the time there. Whether it was "IWAY", "Zergway", "Sinway", "Ritway", whateverway... you see the same builds in PvP a lot. You get to know what people are running as soon as they start casting. Nine times out of ten you are running a build that someone else know about. That is the nature of PvP.

Lastly, I used those "team" builds as an example and don't claim they are any good. I am just proving a point by using them as an example.

I did say you can predict the general build the other team is running (zergway, Bspike, Rspike,sway...). That is different though from knowing every skill on every monsters bar in that area, and having a build that is guaranteed to work in that specific area.

Cure For Road Rage · Mar 13, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

The fact that you use them against a group of 8 other humans who are constrained by the same rules your team is (unlike PvE foes)

Are you saying pve foes are pre-programmed with advantages over players? I have to disagree, if for no other reason than that pve enemies cannot see you until you're right on top of them (ie aggro circle). Moreover, they rarely have all 8 skills on their bars. Find me a pvp opponent who will practically sleep until you rub shoulders.

Having played both facets of the game to death and back, I must say that they can be equally challenging. Surviving multiple mobs in the different high-difficulty pve areas, especially in hm, is comparable with pvp matches where you face, at most, 12 foes. Likewise, steamrolling over inexperienced (I hate the word 'noob') teams in pvp is just as laughablly easy as farming or most of the early pve camaign missions.

btw, I think "dead man lying on the bottom of the grave, wondering when saviour comes, is he gonna be saved" is a fantastic start to a fantastic song

Into White · Mar 13, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

He offers a counter to your assertion that PvE'rs lack the skill to win in PvP, and your counter is that he must be lying? Do you really believe an experienced PvE'r wouldn't know how to use terrain to their advantage, how to kite, when to split, how to body-block, etc. etc.? The same tactics you think makes PvP so much more intellectually challenging than PvE are used in many elite PvE areas, so they're not foreign concepts to us. The fact that you use them against a group of 8 other humans who are constrained by the same rules your team is (unlike PvE foes), in a predictable context is a matter of preference. Let's not attach any more significance to it than that.

with all due respect, i'm quite sure said person understands about being an experienced PvE'r, or at least what it entails. the point however is the complete unpredictability of a human opponent.

when zergway was at it's height in HA we ran up against RAWR - the top GvG team then. we played them even for 20 mins. all of a sudden they changed their entire tactic against us and won. it was all a matter of positioning and they out thought us in that respect, even though we had the gimmick build. no monster in PvE could ever out think a decent, thoughtful player.

i don't PvE that much but when i do i find it a relaxing, however tedious endeavor. yes, the monsters are tough but after figuring out their "patterns" and how they cast it becomes rather boring. when i get beat - guess what, i'm resurrected at the nearest shrine. if i get beat again - guess what, i just click on a powerstone of courage. ballgame over. there is nothing to click on in Halls.

58 fame in a few hours by a noob team? - no way jose.

Zamochit · Mar 13, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Champion Title ~ The rest can be farmed or grinded.

AshenX · Mar 13, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

I am sorry that you do not believe me and frankly I understand why. I have not since had a run as good. As of now I am only R4 (I do not PVP much) and honestly I now know what I did not at the time..we were very lucky.

In the run I mentioned we played for more than five hours as I recall. People stayed because we were doing very well. Our players were nexperienced in HA but were obviously very experienced with their characters overall. With Arcane Echo and Arcane Mimicry on all of our SH eles we had pretty decent AOE. Believe it or not as you like but we faced plenty of teams that just couldnt effectively stay out of our AOE.

As for my own level of experience at the time...I had 3 or 4 fame at the time from the Alliance teams I mentioned in my previous post and nearly two years of PVE (plus AB after factions came out)

I do not know what the meta is, didnt then either, so I cant say if the reason we did so well is because the old meta had ended and such. But it did happen, I am grateful for the fame I got, and shall not in anyway attempt to cheapen the effort required to reach higher fame rank by saying that it is the norm... My point to defekt stands regardless of any decision to disregard the facts as stated in my previous post.

The Way Out · Mar 13, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

I did say you can predict the general build the other team is running (zergway, Bspike, Rspike,sway...). That is different though from knowing every skill on every monsters bar in that area, and having a build that is guaranteed to work in that specific area.

I will agree with, and always will agree with, what you just said. Having said that, noobs are noobs. A PvE noob and PvP noob suffer from the same thing... lack of knowledge. I don't agree with this hilarious war between both sides. Monkeys flinging poo at each other comes to mind.

Neither side of the game is inherently different. PvE players constantly try to get over on the game and PvP players constantly try to get over on each other.

Remember when UW was difficult...?

Remember when HA was difficult...?

Now...?

I am glad that I have experience in both sides. Makes me look at the extremists and find amusement.

I like titles... because it gives me something else to do... I have done everything there is to do in the game already, why not just acheive GWAMM as a personal benefit.

Lastly, I always show my lowest title unless someone asks me otherwise. I don't like the angry people pming me ig telling me I am an ebayer because of xxx title. I come on guru and see the same anger and resentment towards people who enjoy an aspect of the game.

If you want to bash titles, bash the bots that make them easy to achieve. I remember when people were manually running HFFF Kurzick. That didn't take skill, however, it took dedication and drive. We used to do it to take the Sins down (a team goal). Now people go and download a faction farming bot and go afk while their computer gets them r12 Savior. That is something that people should be against. Don't bash the player that dedicated a ton of his time to acheive something ig that he would like to achieve.

Over time, your reliance upon skill decreases and your reliance upon understanding the games mechanics takes over. In PvE, I exploit the AI. In PvP, I exploit the cookie cut builds I know I am going to face.

Res Ipsi · Mar 13, 2008, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cure For Road Rage

Are you saying pve foes are pre-programmed with advantages over players? I have to disagree, if for no other reason than that pve enemies cannot see you until you're right on top of them (ie aggro circle). Moreover, they rarely have all 8 skills on their bars. Find me a pvp opponent who will practically sleep until you rub shoulders.

I'm referring to the insane health/energy regen/imba monster skills some foes in PvE are programmed with, coupled with their insanely fast fast-cast and recharge buffed skills. The Scales in FoW even have 2 elites (Grenth's Balance and Life Transfer). In HM, the foes are programmed to kite like a seasoned PvP'r, often aggroing pop-ups or mobs you were trying to avoid. The same advantages are not afforded your PvP opponents, who are constrained by level capping, attribute spread, armor levels, etc.

Into White · Mar 13, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Way Out

I will agree with, and always will agree with, what you just said. Having said that, noobs are noobs. A PvE noob and PvP noob suffer from the same thing... lack of knowledge. I don't agree with this hilarious war between both sides. Monkeys flinging poo at each other comes to mind.

Neither side of the game is inherently different. PvE players constantly try to get over on the game and PvP players constantly try to get over on each other.

Over time, your reliance upon skill decreases and your reliance upon understanding the games mechanics takes over. In PvE, I exploit the AI. In PvP, I exploit the cookie cut builds I know I am going to face.

QFT. i would like to add one thing. exploiting the cookie cutter builds while mostly successful does not always work - especially when you come up against a cc build that is well run by very experienced players (ranger spike is one example). exploiting the AI on the other hand works 99.9% of the time. - big difference.

Drop of Fear · Mar 13, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zamochit

Champion Title ~ The rest can be farmed or grinded.

1200+ guilds can make a deal to farm each other champ points
ppl are selling 1200+ guilds to ebayers who want to "buy" some champ points

everything can be done the cheap way.